Truth Or Consequences? An Alternate Version Of The World With Yumi Zouma's Josh Burgess & Charlie Ryder

New Zealand-born international band Yumi Zouma released their third studio album, Truth or Consequences, on March 13th, 2020, one day after the global pandemic was declared. It was also one day into their sold out but now cancelled tour of the USA. Many bands have faced dire release/touring derailments due to COVID but Yumi Zouma's story is particularly poignant, however, it posed a question rather than closing a chapter in their lives.

Their album, having been released, continued to reach out to fans and find its audience, but the band members, including Christie Simpson, Josh Burgess, Charlie Ryder, and Olivia Campion, found themselves embarking on an experiment to develop alternate versions of the album's songs, and early in the process they decided to make an entire Alternate Versions album to accompany their initial release.

That album, Truth or Consequences (Alternate Versions), is due out from Polyvinyl on October 28th. The songs on the newest release are something that will keep you on the edge of your seat if you think you know Yumi Zouma's sound in every detail. There's plenty to keep you guessing and pondering how many different directions a song can take and still, in some sense, remain the same song from the same creative font.

We were delighted to speak to Josh Burgess from Brooklyn and Charlie Ryder from London on the same call to quiz them about the development of Truth or Consequences (Alternate Version).

 

Hannah Means-Shannon: Congratulations on having yet another album coming out, ready for release. I know that things have been pretty rough with the release of the original album, Truth or Consequences. I heard you story, of getting to the USA, playing one performance, and then having the tour cancelled, which was pretty heartbreaking.

Josh Burgess: We thought that we would do another version of the record because it couldn’t get any worse than it already was in March. As Michelle Obama assured us a couple days ago, things could get a lot worse. It’s funny looking back on that show, and I don’t know how it was for you, Charlie, but it felt at the time like the world was spinning at hyper speed. It took a while for it all to sink in.

Charlie Ryder: To me, it was so early on in the process that I didn’t know what was happening. I think it wasn’t until everything was cancelled, and we all went home, and started working from home that it all started feeling apocalyptic. Now it just seems strange to entertain the idea of going on tour.

JB: It was funny because during that period, we were gunning for shows to go ahead. In retrospect, even having that show was kind of irresponsible. I hope nobody got sick from the show, but everything has now been reframed. If you made it to the show, lucky you!

HMS: I didn’t, sadly. If only. I think that no one got it yet, so you shouldn’t blame yourself. I was going to shows in March. The whole world needed time to process this.

What I found surprising about the new record is that it’s not, for instance, and acoustic version of the same record, which musicians have been known to do. This is literally different versions of the same songs like might be released on a single. It’s not a change from one style to one other style.

CR: I think we had considered doing all one style, but decided over the course of the album that it would just be too much to do all acoustic or all dance. We did what we thought felt right for each track.

JB: I think it’s also kind of a window onto the world of how we work. We often make different versions of songs as we’re working on them, as part of the process. That process is more feeling-based, asking, “What if this song felt different?”

The way we started this was using the vocal, acapella part as the core, and that held the song together. And there were edits here and there, but nothing super jacked up. So what we did is, between the four of us, Charlie, myself, Christie, and Olivia, we said, “Let’s pick a couple songs each and rework them, and see where that lands us.” It was one of those projects that I’m really glad we did because it was a pretty nice distraction and it was good to have a deadline of something to do. There was that initial period, where you could blink your eyes, and either a week went by or a second and a half.

HMS: [Laughs] That is so true.

JB: To Charlie’s point, in a weird way, the lack of coherency between them is almost the coherency that glues them together. The fact that they are all quire different is something we wanted to explore rather than going down one route. You can find all kinds of weird and wonderful experiments on there, and it’s very much the result of experimentation.

CR: I much prefer the route we went down. I think if it had been all one style, I probably wouldn’t have enjoyed it. But I love this version. Sometimes even more so than the other one.

JB: That’s a worry, isn’t it? That it’s kind of opening up Pandora’s box. I’m hoping that people are going to make their own versions of Truth or Consequences that’s an amalgamation of the two. That’s what I always do.

HMS: Like playlists?

JB: Yes, make a little playlist of different ones here and there.

HMS: That’s interesting fan-involvement there.

JB: That’s something that Charlie has done on and off, on iTunes, changing around tracklistings and things like that.

CR: I used to take a very active role in consuming music in high school, and I would get very frustrated if a band that I liked a lot released a record that I didn’t like, so I would take the track and edit them, and change the track listings and things like that.

JB: Maybe your dream job, Charlie, is being the person who makes “Radiohead Volume One” in 12 tracks.

HMS: This is the digital mixtape approach.

CR: I’m not very good at respecting the original intention of the artist.

HMS: The Alternate edition made me think of when you’re hanging an art exhibit with a bunch of different paintings versus hanging an exhibit with a series of paintings in the same style. You’ve done both, really, both exhibitions now.

JB: I hope you’re not going into art galleries and saying, “I think this Monet should be over here.”

HMS: [Laughs] That sounds like something you all might do. I don’t know if I would do it.

JB: There’s a bit of a lineage of the process that we drew from. If you go back to Duran Duran’s Night Versions, there were whole albums are remixed. There’s another band, Solex, from Belgium in the 2000s, where there’s a whole concert around that idea. I think the timeline is interesting for us, because Truth or Consequences was actually fully mixed a year before it came out.

We were in between record labels and we were shopping. It was a slower process. Some of those songs were written in 2017. So the timing of how we did it might have gotten good results. If you did it close together, the day after recording a song, you’d be a bit of an idiot.

HMS: Did any of these alternate versions exist before, or were they all created during this quarantine time?

CR: They were all created in quarantine. This is the first album, probably, that we’ve made where we didn’t make five or six versions before settling on the final track. There were a couple of songs that were released as B-sides around the release of Truth or Consequences, but by this time, we had exhausted all the spare versions we had lying around. But we split them all up between ourselves and went crazy writing stuff.

JB: There are little bits here and there. On the Japanese version of Truth or Consequences, there’s a version of “Right Track, Wrong Man” which uses some of what the version on the Alternate album uses. To Charlie’s point, I was just opening up a session, plonking in a finished vocal, and going from there. A blank canvas.

HMS: Wow, that’s so cool.

CR: My thought process was, “What is the complete opposite that I can do to this song?” Like, “If it’s in a major key, can I put it in a minor key?”

HMS: Do you think there’s stuff on the Alternate version that might really surprise people in terms of sound based on what they might expect from the band at this point? Or does it suggest sound directions that you might actually pursue in the future?

JB: I feel like whether there are sounds that we will pursue in the future is up to our future selves to determine. I don’t think we’re very good at methodically trying to craft things. I would be reluctant to say that. But in terms of surprises, the last song, “Lie Like You Want Me Back” goes into a sort of distorted soundscape that I wouldn’t have imagined in a Yumi Zouma song because it’s so minimal.

That was a song that I worked on on March 16^th, and I remember making that noise, and having it really loud and looping. In many ways, it was reactionary to that time, when we were just kind of like, “Fuck.” If there’s no vaccine, who knows? Maybe we will turn into a full-on distortion, soundscape band.

What do you think, Charlie? I really liked the “Cool For a Second” version, and it might be something I’d be interested in exploring more of, but who knows?

CR: I think about 8 of the 10 tracks were surprising to me and sounded quite different from what I’d normally expect. There are a couple which I think are really true to the Yumi Zouma sound of what we released so far, but the rest of the songs are really different from what we’ve released publicly so far. I think that’s the nature of this record. It’s not meant to be a standalone record. It’s supposed to be as different sounding as possible. I know, as Josh said, we can’t really predict what our next, next record is going to sound like, but I think it has influenced our sound in a bit of a way.

Because even though it’s an Alternate version, I think the production value might be better than the original version because we’ve become better Producers. Maybe the way that we wrote the songs in such a minimal setting, with such a stripped-back mindset produced cleaning-sounding songs, which might be a way that we work in the future to get a cleaner sound. Something that’s a little bit more accessible rather than how we’ve done it before.

JB: I think what was nice about this album was that experiments could reach their natural conclusion, which is what Charlie’s getting at as well. Before with Aternate versions, we would kind of never finish them because we’d end up moving on with the final version on the record. But this was, “What would happen if we went all the way to the final conclusion of a minimal version of “Cool For a Second”, for instance?”

We’re going into the studio in October to work on another record, and I feel this was a really useful tool. It’s made us use different parts of our creative brains. It’s answered so many questions, but it’s also asked so many questions. Being creative is a constant exploration and that’s the joy in it. This was a really good reminder of that.

HMS: That’s the only way to stay sane right now. How did the idea to do the Alternate version occur to you and how did you all decide to do it?

CR: I think we were just looking for a way to promote the record since our tour got cancelled. All the sudden the big three month release plan that we had for Truth or Consequences got thrown out the window. All of the sudden we were at home with nothing to do, which had never happened before. This was a way to breathe life into the campaign and in a way replace the touring aspect.

JB: On that topic of exploration, we ended up having about 70 shows cancelled, and when you play that many shows, you explore the songs and your relationship with them. In many ways, we felt we were a little bit robbed of that. We didn’t get the opportunity to go out and play those songs. This felt like something that didn’t replace it but could scratch that itch a little bit. But looking back on it, I think none of us wanted to accept and face that the whole thing had blown up. I don’t think there are many worse points to release a record in the past 50 years than March 13^th, 2020.

HMS: Yep!

[Photo credit to Sabina Cliaci]

JB: In exploring these other versions, it was cathartic. It distracted us from feeling sorry for ourselves. We had also spent about two weeks rehearsing and were at the jumping off point that it felt natural to do something with those.

CR: The other option was to start writing the fourth album right away, even though the third one had only just come out. That seemed like we’d be consigning it to history too quickly. This felt like giving the album its time in the sun, even without being able to tour.

HMS: I think it’s a wonderful idea. I’m so glad that you did it. I can see how creating this might give you more of a sense of closure, that you completed something.

CR: I think we’re definitely happy with everything we’ve extracted from it.

HMS: As far as I understand, the band is used to working together across big distances, so was creating the Alternate album something that came naturally in terms of process while separated from each other?

JB: Yes, we definitely had that skill set to work remotely. In the past, it was always a means to an end and there was a date on the horizon where we’d be getting back together. But this time that definitely felt different. Normally, we’ll go into a studio all together, and then we’ll go away and work remotely as a kind of combination of both. This time was A) There’s no date on the calendar when we will be together again and B) Even if there was, nobody even knows if Tuesday is still going to happen in a couple months. I don’t think it felt easier.

HMS: I know that you did go to studios for Truth or Consequences, recording in LA, London, and Christ Church. Were any of you able to use studios for the Alternate album?

JB: No, but we really only go into studios to do the vocals and a bit of writing anyways. I was with my girlfriend and her family in South Carolina, so that was definitely a different set up. I had that working from home vibe. It was weird that everyone was at home. It made everything feel like it existed in a void. I don’t know if you felt like this, Charlie. It made the virtual world even more real. You probably could have gotten a bloody good deal on a studio in March!

HMS: [Laughs] Yes, those prices would have been way down.

You had the same person mixing both albums, Jake Aron, right? What was his reaction to being told that you wanted to do this Alternate version?

JB: I think he was happy to have the work!

CR: He understood. With someone like Jake, and we’ve mixed 40 songs with that dude, you can have things implied and you have built a creative language together. Shout out to Jake!

HMS: That’s ideal under weird circumstances like these.

What do you think are some of the things that are keeping you each moving musically during this time and are keeping the band together?

CR: I think, for me, I had this thought in my mind that every single musician in the world was about to write two albums during this lockdown period and if I didn’t do the same thing, we would be left behind. And it would have been a complete failure. I would have felt so guilty.

HMS: Aww.

JB: I hear you on that. Charlie showed me an Onion headline that felt so true, “Area man confused why the most psychologically taxing year of his life isn’t also the most productive.”

HMS: That’s the best!

JB: To Charlie’s point, it would feel way worse if we were the only band in the world who had to stop. If it was some other circumstance, like we just played the best show, and then I misplaced my head, and we couldn’t find the rest of my body. Therefore, we couldn’t play any more shows. It’s weirdly comforting that everyone is in the same position. I wouldn’t say that keeps me going, but it contextualizes it a bit.

I was talking about this with Charlie, but I really think that things are going to change profoundly in the world forever. I don’t think there’s any going back to 2019. While that is scary, there’s a part of me that thinks there are some great things that could come from it. In the USA, we’re seeing an amplified look at racism. My hope is that from this whole clusterfuck, where somebody holds up an incredibly unflattering mirror to society, we’re going to get to the other side of it and see things differently.

If you look at systemic racism and things like that, if we can really untangle that, if something can change because of this, that makes me excited. That’s the tiny silver lining we’re seeing in this. I don’t think anyone would want to go back to 2019 after this is all over, because this has really exposed the cracks. If we can heal, we’ll have, creatively a much better world.

HMS: Thank you. That’s very well said. There’s a lot to that. I think not everyone is going to reach that realization right away, but I think that it’s definitely beginning to occur to people and will keep spreading as an idea.

JB: Even in the context of the industry that we’re in, there’s a realization of how fragile it is. The idea that if you put out a record, everyone knows now that if you’re just relying on touring, and that disappears overnight, that’s really a problem.

This idea that streaming doesn't pay artists very well, but that’s okay because they make other money on the road, that’s too fragile to be sustainable. There’s been a realization for a lot of people, across the board, that the way that this industry is set up is not sustainable. People may have the idea that, “Shit, maybe giving people access to every song that has ever been made is not the best way to sustain people.” Hopefully things turn around sooner rather than later.

HMS: I definitely agree. This has blindingly, definitely, exposed the incredible weakness in the revenue stream for music. No one can deny that now. Touring is very fragile, it’s very brittle, and how do we make it anti-fragile? Is there any way? I’m sure people are thinking about it now.

JB: It’s the same with venues. They are in a very fragile position. Three or four weeks of no shows bankrupts the venue. But tomorrow’s going to be brighter, and I’m looking forward to the Alternate version of the world.

HMS: Yes, me too.

Have either of you ever been in a Tower Records?

JB: Yes, we’ve been lucky enough to tour in Japan, and Tower Records in Shibuya is always a pilgrimage we make when we’re in Japan.

HMS: Yes, I love that one, too. The Tower Records motto is “No Music, No Life”, also written, “Know Music, Know Life”. We like to ask musicians which of those they prefer and how they feel it applies to their life.

CR: I prefer “Know Music, Know Life”. I prefer fostering a deeper understanding. It’s something I can relate to. But the first one works as well because, personally, if I didn’t have music in my life, I couldn’t imagine having any reason in life at all. Also, for the second one, I feel like a lot of my understanding of life comes through music. What do you think, Josh?

JB: Yes, I tend to agree that to know music is to know humanity. I think that all musicians, ourselves included, write music to try to be understood.

CR: Shout out to “Know Music, Know Life”!

HMS: That’s definitely the more cosmic, more meditative one.

CR: We’re down with that.